How to Promote Peer Support in a Skeptical Culture

[00:00:00] What do you say when your department says we don't need peer support? In this episode, I sit down with Gabe Lira, a marine veteran, retired law enforcement sergeant and peer support pioneer, who's helped entire agencies go from resistant to all in. If you're building a peer support team and hitting walls, this one's for you.

[00:00:25] Welcome to surviving your shift, your go-to resource for building strong peer support teams in high stress professions. I'm your host, Bart Leger, board certified in traumatic stress. With over 25 years of experience supporting and training professionals in frontline and emergency roles, whether you're looking to start a peer support team, learn new skills, or bring training to your organization, this show will equip you with practical tools to save lives and careers.

[00:00:58] Today's episode [00:01:00] is all about one of the biggest challenges I hear from departments trying to start a peer support program, and that's how to get your people to actually trust it. How do you promote peer support in a department where people are skeptical, maybe even resistant? My guest today is Gabe Lira.

[00:01:18] He's a Marine Corps veteran and retired law enforcement sergeant with more than 30 years of service. Gabe's not just a peer support advocate. He built his department's first team, helped launch a regional team across Southern California and co-founded the Public Safety Peer Support Association, which is now helping departments nationwide.

[00:01:39] So, yeah, he knows what he's talking about. In this conversation, Gabe shares real stories, practical strategies, and a no nonsense approach to building buy-in, even when the culture feels closed off. Whether you're just getting started or you've got a team that's struggling to gain traction, you're going to walk away with [00:02:00] something helpful.

[00:02:01] Now, I wanna give you a heads up. This episode runs quite a bit longer than usual. Let's stick with it. Gabe doesn't just talk theory. He's lived this. What he shares could save you months or even years of frustration trying to build a peer support program that actually gets used. So if you're driving, working out, or just catching this in chunks, that's fine.

[00:02:23] Just make sure you listen all the way through. You're going to walk away with practical tips and strategies you can start using today. Alright, Gabe, thanks for being with us on the show. How about giving us a quick snapshot of your background and what led you into the world of peer support? Oh, not a problem.

[00:02:42] Good morning. Thank you for having me. So I started at our department in 94 and it was after my stint in the military and probably about. I a little more than halfway through my career, we had a critical incident where we lost an officer in line of duty. And [00:03:00] during that whole process, I was put in charge of grief support, which if anyone in my department knows me, I am not the guy that you put in charge of grief support.

[00:03:07] You know, I'm the guy that says, you know, there's no crying in, in police work. There's, there's no crying and, and, you know, for a mid period. And so I, I was put in charge of that and I didn't do a good job of it. I kind of, I kind of didn't really do anything. I didn't know what to do. I never dealt with grief support stuff, so I didn't know what to do.

[00:03:25] And after that, we decided that our chief decided to put together a peer support program. So we brought in some folks to talk about that, and then he asked, you know, who wanted to be in charge of that. And I only put my name in the hat so I wouldn't look bad. You know, I had put my name in the hat for several other assignments and got denied all of them.

[00:03:43] And so I was just doing this so I wouldn't look bad. And of course, it's the one I ended up getting and I, and I laugh because I didn't want it. Uh, and I just did this so I didn't look bad. Uh, and so lo and behold, I get it and I dragged my feet on it. 'cause I don't really believe [00:04:00] in any of this, you know, all this stuff and peer support stuff.

[00:04:02] And, you know, if you, if you're a police officer and you cry, then maybe you shouldn't be here. And so I end up, you know, very reluctantly putting the team together. And then we end up having another line of duty, death. And now I'm called to the carpet to provide resources with our peer support team. And I don't have them ready yet.

[00:04:22] And so I have to make all kinds of excuses on why I don't have them ready. And I certainly couldn't blame myself because I would look bad. So I had to blame others for it not being ready. But the truth of the matter is, it wasn't ready because I didn't believe in it. I didn't see a need for it. And therefore I wasn't going to bust my butt getting this done.

[00:04:40] Even though this was the direction of the chief, I was still just dragging my feet. The, the light bulb went on though a few, a few months after that line of duty death where an officer came to me specifically to talk and asked for help with processing the loss of that [00:05:00] officer. And I didn't have any information for him 'cause I didn't know these things.

[00:05:03] And I just referred him to a clinician and he said he was not gonna go see a clinician. He was gonna talk to me. And we went back and forth over this. Go see a clinician talking to you, go see a clinician talking to you, and then, you know, you know, finally just asked him, I said, Hey, you know, why, why are you, why are you even having a problem with this?

[00:05:19] 'cause everyone knows you didn't even really care for that guy. And he is like, you know, that's the problem. Like, I didn't like that guy, so why is this bothering me so much? Why am I having nightmares and why, why, why can't I stop thinking about this? You know? I'm like, yeah, I don't know. I don't have any answers for you, man.

[00:05:34] I'm like, again, I pushed the clinician and he's like, no. He's like, aren't you on peer support? I'm like, yes, I'm on peer support. But, uh, I said, I don't know any of this stuff. I said, I just, I, I put the team together like the boss said, and we have it now and it's organized and, um, but all I know is I went to the class and all I know is go see a clinician.

[00:05:55] That's all I got. And, uh, he's like, yeah. So you started out is not really being the guy that should have been [00:06:00] in charge of it. Right, exactly. That's why I'm saying, how did I get this job? This is, this is, everyone knows this isn't me. What is, what's wrong with the chief? You know? Uh, but that, that moment, that conversation with that officer bothered me.

[00:06:16] I thought about it for, for several weeks and 'cause this is actually a person in my department that I actually consider a friend, not just an acquaintance or a coworker. This a guy that I actually considered to be a friend. And so, uh, I decided, you know what, let me, let me go to another one of these peer sport classes and maybe I'll, um, get some really easy go-to, you know, cookie cutter answers so that the next time, um, somebody comes to me, I can give them a good answer.

[00:06:41] You know, something like, Hey, you know, two Advils a good night's sleep, some hot, you know, green tea and a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and you'll be golden tomorrow morning, kind of thing. And the more I looked into this, the, the more so I attend the class, I realized just from that one class, like, wow, there's, maybe there's more to it than I thought.

[00:06:56] So let me, let me go to another class and then another class. And the [00:07:00] more I looked at this, the more I realized how wrong it was. And I had told the clinician when we were in initially starting up our team, I told the clinician, we don't need this. I said, we are, uh, we are pretty squared away here. And I said, even our women are pretty, pretty awesome here.

[00:07:19] They, they know how to handle their stuff. And I come from a small agency, but, but we're, we're pretty busy. And, um, the clinician looked at me and said, well, Gabe, I, I hope you're right, but I don't think you will be. And I said, well, it doesn't really matter. The chief wants this done. We're gonna do it. I said, but I can tell you right now, nobody's gonna use this team.

[00:07:37] No one's calling us. 'cause we're not that way. So you were the guy that I talk about when, when I say there's so many people that say, you know, just suck it up buttercup and Yes, move on. Yes, I am the guy who says, rub some dirt on it. Have, and I will literally say, go have a couple beers, get some sleep, and come back tomorrow.

[00:07:56] Like So what would you say was the turning point when you [00:08:00] realized this work of peer support? We gotta have it and it's essential. When the light bulb went on and I went to the classes and all of a sudden I kind of fell down this little rabbit hole and got a little, you know, carried with the classes.

[00:08:14] And I started looking around my department and things I had noticed before, like the old guys that were always angry, they were just like, screw this place. I can't wait to leave. You know, and just had nothing good to say about command or the department. And I was always wondering like, why this is the best job in the world.

[00:08:30] Why are you so angry? Look at all the things this job's provided for you. Why are you so angry? All the, the, um, the drinking that I didn't think was a problem, but now all of a sudden I'm realizing what it's all about, all the divorces that again, hey, I didn't think there's a problem with that, but, but so all of a sudden, like the picture became clear on what's going on, I'm like, holy cow, I have been missing so much.

[00:08:57] Uh, all these things they just thought were. [00:09:00] This is what happens in police court. You know, we, after work, we go and have a drink. If it's a rough day, we have, you know, two or three drinks. Um, our wives get mad because we're never home. We miss a lot of, uh, you know, a lot of family get togethers. We, my wife already knew that if I said I'll be home in an hour, probably about four hours, um, because I always say, Hey, I'm leaving here about, in about an hour, maybe I should be done.

[00:09:21] And then like two hours later she's calling me. I'm like, one more hour. You know? And so, and that leads to a lot of problems at home, which leads to divorces. And I just thought, Hey, look it, women get tired of, of our inconsistent job, you know, and just, you know, always, you know, us always not being there.

[00:09:39] It's work. And so I just thought it was just, Hey man, it came to the territory, period. You know, I didn't realize, and now I realize just how damaging our jobs are. So, would you, would it be fair to say that most people saw the symptoms before? Those who were exhibiting the symptoms. I mean, everybody around us saw [00:10:00] it, but we didn't see it yet.

[00:10:02] Yes, I would. Yeah, I would say it is. You know, I always say that we are each other's chick edge alike, you know? Yeah, that's a good way to say it. I can definitely see when the problem occurring you before you see it. And even once I pointed out, you won't admit it. I was just having a conversation with a gentleman a little while ago and I said the same thing.

[00:10:19] I said, you know, to take your car to the shop when the check engine light goes on, but we don't have a check engine light. We are each other's check engine light. I love the way you put that, you know, and so we could definitely see when you are not the same as you were yesterday. And we can definitely see when a call affected you, whether you're angry or sad or, or bewildered.

[00:10:41] We can see that. And sometimes we just. I don't know, choose to ignore it. Or sometimes we don't want to go down that road because we ourselves may be struggling with that, or we do address it and the person gives us a really easy response and we just accept their, you know, [00:11:00] their rationale. Like, oh, it was just, I'm tired.

[00:11:04] So you really didn't embrace peer support fully when you first started. Right. Uh, that's a nice way of putting it. Definitely. That's the, the nice way of putting it, right? Yes. So what would you say are some of the most common reasons you've seen departments hesitate to embrace peer support from the beginning?

[00:11:26] Well, I think a lot of the reasons why we don't embrace it in the beginning is because everyone I've talked to, including my own department, says one, this isn't our culture. You know, we don't do this, we don't have a problem with these things, you know, we just, so it's a culture issue, you say. I think that's part of it.

[00:11:43] Now that I work with other agencies, one thing they says it wasn't, it's none of our culture. This was our culture at my department either. And the next agency that has an issue or has a, you know, major incident where they need peer support resources or grief support resources is gonna say the same thing.

[00:11:56] This is our, we don't do this. This is our culture. We don't talk about things like [00:12:00] this. You know, we have over the years followed the examples of our senior officers or our predecessor leaders and they've never allowed us to talk about these things. Matter of fact, if they think you're having a hard time with something, they're gonna hammer you with that same exact something, thinking it's gonna create some kind of inoculation.

[00:12:19] I know early on, you know, my father passed away, uh, early on in my career, and I was still in the FTO program and my first call back after being gone bereavement was. A suicide of an elder, an older man. And my dad didn't die from, from suicide, but my first call back was a suicide of an older man. And, uh, I told my ft I'd rather not do that because you know, I'm still kind of processing my own dad.

[00:12:42] And he was like, I don't care. And he was used very colorful language. He says, that's your cargo, handle it. Yeah. Kinda like pushing you into the deep end, right? Yes. And I had expressed, and I wasn't like getting all mushy about it, I just said, eh, hey, you know, sir, I'm a trainee. Sure. Do you, you mind if we did so somebody else have that call?

[00:12:59] 'cause [00:13:00] eh, it's just weird. I just buried my dad. And he is just like, it's some very loud and colorful language. It's like, uh, no, it's your call. Go handle it. If you can't handle your job, you can always leave. Wow. So, and that's, that's our culture. Right. So at what point was I taught. That I'm allowed to have an emotion or a human response to an abnormal, you know, incident.

[00:13:27] Yeah. We're like, we're almost like sharks in the water. Right. When we, when we smell, when we smell blood, that's when we, we tend to bite each other. Yeah. Don't show me your weak point, because once I know your weak point, man, we just keep, just keep, ja, we, we definitely will kick a dead horse over and over and over that.

[00:13:43] That's it. That's it. Now what about leadership? Do you see sometimes leadership plays a role in the department hesitating to embrace peer support? Yes. I think in all aspects of our profession, [00:14:00] peace and fire, both that one, the pe, the behavior that's modeled from the top will definitely run down, run downhill.

[00:14:09] So if our leaders have this really, um, uh. Tough macho attitude then, then nobody else below them is gonna ask for help. No one else below them is gonna encourage any kind of wellness program. And again, I don't really fault them at times. I mean, they can change things, but again, they're falling back onto what they were taught, you know, and how they grew up in this department.

[00:14:32] You know, again, they weren't allowed to share emotions or feelings. So since they were never allowed that, they don't also provide that opportunity for anybody else. And when we see that an employee is struggling, a lot of times we just kind of say, you know, um, we've test, you know, the medal of your manhood and we found you to be wanting, and so if you're not, if you can't do this job anymore, move on.

[00:14:56] You know, they just, and then it's so hard to [00:15:00] be impartial to an injury you can't see, you know? Right. Because it's those, it's those invisible injuries that, that really. Calls us to struggle, but it doesn't appear that way to others. Right. It's so easy to say you have a physical injury that I can actually see, and therefore I understand why you need time off, you know, and, and, but you know, you have the person who's got the back problem, but they go to the doctor and they come back.

[00:15:25] It's just soft tissue damage, but yet they're kind of on restricted duty or, or no deed at all, because there's soft tissue damage to their, to whatever part of their body. And you're like, really, really have an injury. Like you don't have a broken bone or anything. Like, well, just it's, you know, just soft tissue damage.

[00:15:39] Like, come on. And so we, so even that we kind of dealt right. So now put this as a Yeah. Yeah. I mean we had a milk company, uh, here in our area and it was called Borden Milk. And people that, that complained like that got the nickname Borden because they were milking it for all it was worth. We, we had a lieutenant who called him farmers.[00:16:00] 

[00:16:00] Okay. Oh, look at the farmer over here, you know, 'cause he is, he's milking it. And even if a leader realized the need. To begin changing the culture is kind of like turning a battleship around, right? You can't just do it overnight. True. And they have several issues, and I, and I try to look at it from their perspective also, right?

[00:16:20] They, it's a manpower issue. You know, if all of a sudden we have, you know, 10, and we used to make fun of this, you know, before I changed, right? We, you know, we called it having a sad day. You know, so if someone was, needed a day off and for whatever reason, we're like, oh, so they're calling in sad today. Oh, they're taking a sad day.

[00:16:38] We, we just tease 'em, right? So how many people can we have off on a sad day? You know, we have, we have a, you know, a job performer. I look at it from the commands level, right? They have a company that needs to put out a product and they need to have the proper staffing. To put out this product [00:17:00] and meet the needs of, of their clients.

[00:17:02] Right. And even though I don't really think that our citizens or our clients or or our customers, we still have to put out a patrol shift. At minimum. Somebody has to handle the radio call at minimum. You know, we could shut down other areas and, and pull our detectives order to be patrol and, you know, our, our traffic bureau guys to beat patrol, whatever.

[00:17:20] But we still have to have people on the ground to handle this. Right. And I, and you know, I know Chiefs look at it going, we have this, these number of people out for injuries, you know, physical injuries. We have this number of people out because of internal affairs investigations. And so they start looking at where all the manpower's missing and they're like, oh, and this guy wants to take a, he wants time off because, uh, he says that he's stressed.

[00:17:44] You know, we're all stressed. Who cares? Come back to work. You can work stressed. You know, so it's hard for them to. Say yes to those things when they're still trying to operate, you know the department, right? They're holding that intention, right? Yes. You gotta keep that in [00:18:00] balance. What would you say, is there maybe misinformation sometimes that keeps departments from just really getting on the, on the bandwagon, uh, misinformation as far as peer support?

[00:18:13] You know, the, I think some of the bigger hindrances on, on command creating peer support teams or expanding peer support teams is, there's always an argument of cost. You know, it's cost prohibitive. We just don't have the money for that. It's just a gossip group anyway. Uh, once you tell somebody your problem, they're going to tell everybody the problem.

[00:18:34] They just want you so that you can protect them during internal affairs investigations. 'cause they can talk to you and, and not me. And then I can't even even review you because of confidentiality. You know? So I think a lot of times it's. They aren't aware of, of how to utilize that tool and what that tool does as much as it's misinformation, you know, and I look at the, you know, I look at the way we spend money in our apartments, and I'm not saying that we spread it frivolously, but I know when we need something, we find the money [00:19:00] and peer support teams are such a low cost item.

[00:19:03] You know, I tell 'em, I tell agencies all the time, the really the only cost really is the initial training for your peer reporter to go to the initial peer support class. That's it. You know, for the most part, they do everything in confidence. Everything is quietly behind the scenes. So there's no charge for any hourly work because it's all done in confidence.

[00:19:22] It's all done on the side or after hours, uh, unless they go to some kind of extended training. There's really, there's really no expense. You know, our SWAT teams that we all have, you know, have mandated training twice, a twice a month, and we spend millions of dollars a year on our SWAT teams. And I, nothing at swat.

[00:19:40] I was on swat, uh, but we spend millions of dollars a year on SWAT teams that we might use. Six or seven times in a year, but yet we won't spend $10,000 on a team that we use every single day of the month. A matter of priorities, right? Uh, so the expense thing, you know, I, I, I understand that we all, [00:20:00] you know, we're trying to figure out how to, you know, look, you know, keep within our budgets or even lower budgets, but to me that's just such, um, a cop out answer when it comes to the budget.

[00:20:09] So I think a lot of times if they are, the team is misunderstood, you know, uh, they don't know enough about it. And maybe somewhere down the road I've had this one too. Well, if we're telling everybody in peer report what's going on, what if they get called in the court? So there's the what ifs, right? And I'm like, yeah, but what if they don't?

[00:20:28] And gimme the examples of when it did happen, you know? So we're not gonna do something because something might happen in 10 years. I'm like, so we don't take care of our people now because in 10 years, just to bite you the butt. But how about. What you don't do now, biting you in the but in 10 years and how many are we losing who we could keep and how much does it cost to replace an officer or a firefighter or nurse or what have you?

[00:20:54] You know, and it's, and it's, it's hard, right? Because a lot of these things, all these numbers aren't, you know, they, you know, we can't, there's no [00:21:00] tangible numbers, right? You know, when we have somebody who retires from any kind of a stress related, uh, retirement or PTSD or whatever it may be, what does it cost to replace an officer?

[00:21:14] You know, and a lot of times our officers are telling the real reason why they're retiring because they're embarrassed. They don't want people knowing, um, maybe based on their retirement, um, um, MOU, if they retire and anything other than a service retirement, they'll lose some of their benefits. So, you know, they have enough time on the job, you know, they're.

[00:21:38] 52 years old. And, and really they're, they're retiring because of their mental illness, but they won't say that. They just say, I'm done. I'm gonna retire. I'm, and they go away, right? So we don't know the real reason why they're retiring. The peer reporter may know, um, somebody outside the agency like myself who works with a lot of these gentlemen and women may really know, but their agency does it.

[00:21:58] So they don't say, well, we [00:22:00] lost three guys to retirement because, and now it's gonna cost us. So there is a definite cost for doing nothing, right? There is definitely cost for doing nothing. And we've seen it happen. We've seen the lawsuits have occurred as a result of the suicides. And that's where we really see it.

[00:22:15] Uh, when the spouses are suing the agencies because their husbands took their, or their wives took their own lives and they knew ahead of time it was because of the agency, but the person just would not ask for that help because of the stigma, the embarrassment, the retaliation. And so eventually the family ends up suing, you know, before when it wasn't considered a line of duty death, there was no benefits for these people.

[00:22:37] None. So they lose their loved one, their primary income maker, and now they have no nothing coming in, you know? And now as long as we can draw a line back to the job, it can be filed as a line of duty, death. And now the family will get death Benefits would rather have their loved one, but at least they'll get something.

[00:22:56] Let's shift gears for a moment and what would you say [00:23:00] to a department, an agency that has started a peer support team, but can't seem to get anyone to use it? What should they do? You know, normally I, I advise agencies, new teams, that one, it's gonna take about two years, maybe even a little longer before they come effective because, and when you say effective people being able to use Yes.

[00:23:19] People willing to use them. It is a, it's a trust issue. You know, we all know that we, we make fun of women that are a bunch of gospels, but I can tell you, and you know, the surprise as well as I do. We men are just as bad, you know? Right. Maybe even worse I think sometimes, right? We spend our whole, yeah. Did you hear about Well, no, but so and so told me.

[00:23:39] You know, so, so we are just as bad, you know, and, and because like we said earlier, right, we keep kicking that dead horse. You know, people realize that, that you talk, a lot of smack people realize that you make fun of the weak gazelle. Like you pounce on the weak gazelle. And that was, I had to outlive that reputation.

[00:23:56] I was definitely the guy that if I found your weakness, I would [00:24:00] just, I would rib you forever, man. I was that guy that just make fun of you. I would lead the charge on, on teasing this person. When I finally started getting into peer support and I started realizing, you know, how needed this was, and I'm telling people, you know, come to me, lean on, lean on my shoulder, talk to the like, shit, right dude, you're the first guy that makes fun of all of us.

[00:24:20] You know, so I have to outlive that reputation. So you had to outlive a reputation, right? And, and so like, well, with people like you on peer support, why would I ever go to peer support? So it takes a while for people to start realizing that, that we are changing, you know, that we are trying to do the right thing, you know?

[00:24:37] And I, and once I took a, once I actually started becoming actively training our team and trying to make them better, that these are some of the things I said, Hey, we have to stop being the jokers. We have to stop being the one that makes fun of the guy who's taking that sad day from now on. We don't call it a sad day, we just say they're taking time off.

[00:24:55] You know, we don't start making fun of people that are dealing with any kind of [00:25:00] depression or PTS that we know of. 'cause I, you know, when PTSD kind of first hit the marketplace, it was all the military and we were dealing with a lot of the folks in public, you know, a lot of our vets that were, you know, having mental, you know, you know, mental issues 'cause of their service.

[00:25:17] And I remember asking a clinician one time, I'm like, how do you know if they're faking it? Like, how do you look at somebody that's saying, I have PTS. So how do you, like, how do you know if they're faking that? Because I think half these kids are full of baloney. And, um, the clinician said, we don't know and we can't take a chance.

[00:25:33] So we just treat 'em all like they're dealing with it. And if they're not, if, if they're full of bologna, it kind of comes out and, and we recognize that and we move on, but we can't take a chance to at being wrong. So we, we just, we accept it all the way it is. And back then, because it was the public, I was like, yeah, whatever.

[00:25:51] And not, and I was more looking at it because the folks were bringing into jail, into the jails, right. But when it started really becoming more evident with our people. [00:26:00] That's kinda how I started looking at it. Like, oh, okay. So I don't, I don't know what they're dealing with. I don't understand PTSD, but they're saying they have that and if they do, like I get it.

[00:26:08] Like I understand because, you know, being on the job, we can relate to a lot of what they're, what they're going through. So even though I didn't understand what PTSD was or, or how it manifested itself in a person, I knew enough not to call 'em, you know, um, liars. And I knew enough to get them the help that they needed.

[00:26:24] And then I started going like, maybe I should learn more about this so that I can't diagnose anybody, but I can certainly help them get the help they need and understand where they're at. Do you believe that if someone reaches out for help and even hints to the fact that they might have PTSD, they had to jump over a pretty high hurdle to say they needed help?

[00:26:43] Right? Absolutely. I think if somebody came to me today asking for help at any level, they have been thinking about this for months. This isn't something they thought about last night and made a decision. Today. They have been battling with asking for. For weeks, if not months. [00:27:00] This is such a hard thing for us to do, is to ask for help.

[00:27:05] And when someone finally does ask for help, we have to be there because if we're not, if we don't have the answer today, they're not coming back. Even if you came back to 'em next week and said, Hey, you know what, I, I was thinking about what you said and I, and I can help you out. They're like, I'm good now.

[00:27:21] I, you know, I figured out you missed that window of opportunity. Right? Absolutely. Get one bite of that apple and if we aren't there to help them out, there's a good chance they're not coming back. Or if they do come back, it's gonna be way down the road and things are gonna be even worse for them. Their family could be severely torn apart, their career could be severely in, in danger.

[00:27:39] Uh, their personal safety could be, you know, at risk. And so I, you know, that's one of the things I really kind of try to emphasize is that you have to be ready the day this person calls for and asks for help because they haven't talking about this, for thinking about this for such a long time. And if you.

[00:27:57] Let them down, then they're [00:28:00] saying this process, this team, this program, this peer support team is a bunch of baloney. Nobody should use it. You know, you'll be lucky if they don't sit there and work against you now saying, Hey, I went to them and asked for help. And we've had this happen from a gentleman before.

[00:28:13] I asked them for help and they did nothing for me. And so we, I had to sit him down and say, first of all, you didn't ask us for help. Your issue was department-wide because you told everybody your problems for the last year and then you went to so and so and who's not on the team and asked for help. And he said, go talk to peer support, which you didn't do, so you can't blame.

[00:28:34] So we had to kind of straight straighten out the record on that one. Yeah. So bad reviews seem to get way more, way more press than, than the good reviews. And you mentioned stigma, uh, a little earlier. So, so there really is a stigma surrounding reaching out for help. Right. There is, you know, and I hear a lot of folks, uh, that are in this wellness space now, who.

[00:28:54] We'll deny stigma exists, or we'll try to talk around stigma. Yeah. We can say that all [00:29:00] we want. We can deny anything that exists, right? You ask the, the average councilman, there's no gangs in his city either. You know, ask the next average councilman. There's no drugs in his city either, right? We can deny, deny, deny all we want.

[00:29:10] Okay? Then what's stopping our people for asking for help? You know, it's that stigma. It's that fear of retaliation. It's the embarrassment, it's the ridicule from their peers, the people like me that would make fun of them, you know? And so that's all part of stigma. I don't know what other people are looking at when they're thinking of stigma, right?

[00:29:26] But we don't wanna get pigeonholed, and now all of a sudden we're stuck in patrol for the rest of our life because we're considered to be mentally unstable. You know, we don't want to have the boss mad where they're putting us on a fitness for duty evaluation while we sit at home. We don't want our peers thinking that we're unsafe and they won't work with us, and we don't wanna be teased for asking for help.

[00:29:45] You know, these are all the things, these are all the fears that prevent us. This is the stigma that that prevents us from asking for help. Now, how would you say we should, or we could be able to chip away at that stigma, obviously. [00:30:00] We can't get rid of it overnight. It's still going to be there. There will still be people who are afraid to speak up because they're afraid of retaliation or that they, like, as you say, they may get stuck in a, in a certain division somewhere.

[00:30:14] But how can we start chipping away at that idea of, they'll, they'll be backlash if I reach out. But I think there's a, a couple of easy ways to start off with and, um, like the low hanging fruit per se. And that is when we start interacting with our folks who are out of work, whether they're out of work for an investigation, whether they're out of work for an injury or an illness, we start reaching out to those folks and just showing that we care.

[00:30:37] Checking on 'em. Once in a while, grab 'em. Go for some coffee, especially if somebody's out, you know, for an internal affairs investigation, a lot of times they isolate at home. Just grab that, call 'em up, show up, and don't ask, just show up. Take 'em out for a cup of coffee. Don't even talk about the problem. So you're saying be proactive, right?

[00:30:53] There are some who there, there are some talk out there and I've, I've had some who, who've disagreed. They said, well, you know, peer support [00:31:00] team you should be responding to. But what you're saying is we should be able and willing to reach out to those that maybe are in a situation that they may be having a tough time.

[00:31:13] Yes. They may be struggling. Yeah. So, right. And we, and we have some agencies out here that, um, they don't want the name peer support because they want to be trauma response. You know, it's, it's the whole, the the masculine side of that. Right. Like, we we're like swat, we only get called when, when things are serious.

[00:31:33] Hey, we're not peer support, we're trauma. We only get called when things are serious, you know, and I tell 'em, look it, no one's gonna talk to you when things are serious if you never talk to him any other time. You know, the person who's struggling with something that's really serious is gonna talk to you because they believe you, because you're always checking on them.

[00:31:52] You know, this person in, in the detective bureau, they had a really tough, um, case. They were working on homicide or sexual assault or whatever it was, and you [00:32:00] just came to see how they were doing. Hey, man, that's, that was a, that's a tough one, dude. Like, how are you, how you sleeping? You know, how you feeling when you start paying attention to the little things in their life, like a passing of a loved one, a tough call at work, a serious investigation.

[00:32:16] Those little things that they're involved on a day-to-day basis. If you check on those little things, then when the big thing happens, they're gonna talk to you. They're gonna believe you because you're always there. You can't, you can't just be there on the serious stuff. You have to be there for not just being a reactor, right?

[00:32:35] All this is the serious stuff. This is all what leads up our stress. This is all leads up to our depression. You know, that really resonates with me because I've had some who were either on administrative leave or they're on sick leave something, and I called and I just said, Hey, how are you doing? Yes, just call to, to see how you're doing.

[00:32:55] And what I've heard more than once is, man, you've been the fir, you're the first one that [00:33:00] called me. Nobody else called. Or what I hear sometimes is yeah, supervisor called and asked when I'll be back on the job. And that's the only reason they called. Yeah. We came back, they didn't ask how I was doing. Uh, and I was supervisor, right?

[00:33:14] So at first when I would call people, they're like, you know, Hey Sarge, hey sar. I'm like, look at man. I'm not calling you a sergeant. I'm calling you as Gabe, bro. I'm just, I'm just, how are you? And at first they're kind of hesitant 'cause they, they don't trust it, right? It's that whole trusting and then eventually they realize, oh yeah, you are just kind of calling to check on me.

[00:33:31] Right? So I. It goes a long way. A a lot of times, especially after an incident where somebody's on, uh, an ia, um, or even, even when they're hurt, uh, their phone rings so much. 'cause all the nosy, nosy people wanna know what happened. Their phone burns up so they turn the phone off, but they come back. They wrong going, you know, you're the only one who text me like you would text me once a week, or you, and you.

[00:33:53] They, they still, they still keep track of who's calling. Even though the phone's off, they still see who the text is. They still see who [00:34:00] the, the missed call's from. And if this is a person who is, um, fighting an IA for an alleged allegation, I think we are probably one of the only professions that we are, you are guilty until proven innocent, even though every bad guy out here is innocent until proven guilty.

[00:34:14] But, you know, if your, if your buddy gets put off a warrant for drunk driving. And they were like, oh, dude, come on. You screwed up. You should've been drunk driving or whatever. I, I wasn't, I wasn't drunk. They didn't know no one caught me. Someone just said I was whatever. Right. So they go away. They're angry.

[00:34:31] They're really angry at command because now they have this, this IA that's completely baloney. Everyone's treating 'em like they're guilty and no one calls 'em. They come back even angrier because they feel like the whole Right. The entire department was against them, and the entire department said they were guilty.

[00:34:49] But if we make an effort to check on 'em once in a while and look in on them, well, they may still be angry at command because this is all happen, but they're not angry at us because when I came in, at least you guys were [00:35:00] checking on me. You called once in a while. I don't to answer the phone. So they, but they're keeping, they're keeping track of these things and it does go a long way with them, especially the injuries.

[00:35:07] So we're dealing with cultures that are innately skeptical. What's something that departments often get wrong when trying to promote their peer support program? Some of the things I've seen that they get wrong is that one peer support only calls when it's a big incident and then the whole team calls Ah, so they get flooded with calls.

[00:35:27] So one, if the team doesn't exist, they only, they never even get a call from 'em, and then all of a sudden there's something and everybody of the team calls, so they kind of feel like it's to check the boxes kind of thing. What about the calls after like two, two or three weeks? They do, they kind of disappear, don't they?

[00:35:38] Um, I think that we should be doing more diffusing and debriefings for some of these calls, and we don't because we're in a hurry to go home, or it's uncomfortable or we're not used to it. So I think that some of the things we do wrong is that we don't make some of these, these things, you know, normal. We should make these things more regular.

[00:35:56] So that way our folks are used to it. We start normalizing wellness. We start [00:36:00] normalizing talking about things after their, you know, after a big incident. So we're not sending people home to unpack things, give 'em a quick diffusing, Hey, expect this, this might happen, that might happen. Do this, don't do this, try this, don't try that kind of thing.

[00:36:12] Uh, if you're still having some problems, you know, we'll do a debriefing down the road or come to me, whatever. Some of the things that they do wrong also is they don't give, they need to give their team some autonomy, right? To, um, to work, to do the things they think they need to do quietly behind the scenes without having to check in with somebody.

[00:36:26] You know, initially my chief was like, if somebody wanted see a clinician, it had to be approved through the chief's office, you know, so. Who's gonna ask for help if they have to go to the chief's office to get it, they would come to, right? Their, they would go to their peer supporter and, and ask to see a clinician.

[00:36:41] The peer supporter would then call me and I would say, lemme call the chief. So we're putting all these little layers in between the person call, ask for help, and the chief. And then the chief would ask me always, well, who is it? Uh, I don't know Chief. I just got a peer report. Call me saying someone they're dealing with, oh, who's the peer supporter?

[00:36:59] Ah, [00:37:00] rather not tell you right now, chief. Okay, well it, you know, is it an employee? Is it sworn, is it non-sworn male, female? On, on, on. And all my answers would be, I don't know, not sure. And then Chief would always say, well, why don't you call and get some more answers and call me back? And so I would hang up the phone, okay, chief, no problem.

[00:37:17] I'd hang up the phone, I'd whip out my cell phone, and I'd play about four levels of Candy Crush. Call the chief back saying, um, yeah, I couldn't get those answers, chief. Like, I don't know, I couldn't get ahold of the person. He's like, okay, well. If you think it's really necessary and it's urgent, then go ahead.

[00:37:35] And I'm like, why couldn't we just start there? Oh, that is too funny, sad. Why can't we just start? That's sad. Why do I have to go through this every single time? I'm like, look, it don't get me wrong. I'm getting good at Candy Crush. You know, but, uh, why do we have to play this game every time? And eventually the the chief said, let's get a contract with a behavioral wellness company and let's do some blind billing here, and they can make their own appointments if they need it.

[00:37:58] 'cause I just kept, we almost [00:38:00] like, we, we under utilize something that we have available. You mentioned something earlier about the diffusing send the debriefings. By the way, that's part of a protocol where we, we do critical incident stress management. And in my experience we did very few diffusing and there's something we call the trauma membrane.

[00:38:20] When, when you're hurting, you want it to go away. I know when I have a headache. I mean, I'll take an aspirin, I'll take something for it right away, but if we wait too long, we miss that window of opportunity and it's best done within eight hours after an incident. But we're, we're really not using things like we, we should.

[00:38:39] And I've had calls where it'll be two and three weeks later and they say, well, you know, I guess we should have done something like, well, you know, it might not, might be too late, but we'll go ahead and provide whatever services we can. Yeah. You know, I tell, I, I encourage agencies to, to uh, make certain things that automatic, you know, response.

[00:38:57] These calls, you know, should [00:39:00] have a debriefing, a diffusing before you go home. These types of calls, these types of calls should be, uh, debriefings. These types of calls you should be calling a clinician in to help out, like have these things set in stone before it happens because if we try to make a decision on that day, our emotions get involved.

[00:39:15] So if this is the kind of call that should be a diffusing it, it's my Friday and I got a trip plan tomorrow and I need to get home and get so sleep and get packed. We're not diffusing today. I gotta get outta here because it's not a protocol. It's not, it's not what we do. Right. It's not in stone. You know, the same thing with the debriefing.

[00:39:32] Right. You know, or if it's a sergeant or a lieutenant who doesn't believe in this, like, yeah, you guys are flying, we're good. We just leave. But if it is in our SOP that after, after a suicide, we have a diffusing, then let's make a 10, 15 minute diffusing and get outta here. You know, let's not keep pushing this, you know, this can down the road and hoping everybody gets better.

[00:39:57] So I think, yeah, well diffusing aren't meant to last for a long No, it's [00:40:00] really short. Just kind of a, a very, just very situational overview. Yes. And we give you a little bit of teaching what to do when you get home and, right. And some, that's it. 30 minutes at host. You know, we aren't training our peer support teams well enough.

[00:40:13] You know, I remember being on the SWAT team, I can tell time to practice bust salts in case we had a, a day where we had to do a bust assault and, and. 12 years of being on the 11 years of being on the team. We never did one bus assault, but I practiced that thing a thousand times. Oh, I'm so glad, Gabe, you mentioned that because every time, and I have been in those debriefings where I was asked to come in and someone else was the facilitator and things just went sideways.

[00:40:42] And it was obvious to me that this team was not well trained 'cause critical incident stress or, uh, intervening peer support. Absolutely. It's a perishable skill. And if it's not done well, and then when there's a negative, uh, negative outcome and people will say, well, that stuff doesn't work. [00:41:00] And so we need to make sure that our people are trained and I encourage every team quarterly, if not more often, just to get together and Yes.

[00:41:08] Just do some Yes, do some practice. We, we had a, a local agency we were working with and it was all the supervisors and we were asking, why don't they use your peer support team? And, and one was because they didn't trust him. The other one was because they don't like the people on the team, which we can't control that part.

[00:41:26] We, we have some level of control, but not totally. And the other one, which was a big one, was they didn't think they had the tools to help them. You know? And so it's like, and I, and I agree, you know, if I went to the average per the average push boarder and I was saying, Hey man, I was talking to this guy, a clinician and they said I should do some E MDR R and you ask an average push boarder what E mdr R is, they have no clue, you know, they can't even get the most the time we can't even get the letters right.

[00:41:52] It's E-D-M-R-E-R-D something with a e and a r. You know, that's definitely, I've heard, I've heard all always to say, yeah or they go 'em to ask [00:42:00] them, you know, like, hey, um, so I was out with this group and they wanna do like equine therapy, like what's equine therapy and your peer supporters. A lot of times, regardless of what the modality is, most of the time they don't know, which doesn't instill confidence in the person asking for help.

[00:42:17] Yeah. So we should stay current, right? That's why we have advanced training. Yes. The, the, there's laws that have changed. You know, there are, um, like our peer reporters should know that suicide can be considered a line of due death. Peer reporters should know that there are mandates now out there that say, we should be trying to figure out how to help people with TBI, you know, what is TBI?

[00:42:40] How do we as a average police officer, you know, suffer from TBI And, and when someone comes to you and says, yeah, I was talking to my doctor and he said that I probably had some TBI, but I don't even know how I would get that. Huh? I don't know. Uh, one, have you been in any car accidents at work? Maybe the last fight you got into fights at work where you're a breacher at work, you know, did you ever get [00:43:00] smack in the face, in the airbag?

[00:43:01] So it just seems like this, I think that we really. Do a disservice to our agencies when our peer support teams are not trained to explain resources. Provide those helps to have that skillset because that is, that is, that is their, their area of expertise. They should definitely have an advanced skillset, you know, just like any other specialized unit within our agencies.

[00:43:26] Right. Uh, Gabe, can you maybe think of an example of a department that, that turned a corner, maybe one that was skeptical at first, but came to embrace peer support? What made the difference? I think the biggest difference that has made is that peer support leader really advocates for the wellness program, the peer support team, and finds creative ways to involve the peer support team in the department.

[00:43:55] You know, and like I tell a lot of the folks that are leading these teams, it doesn't have to be your [00:44:00] idea. You have a team of. 10, 15, 20 people. They're all creative people, you know, bring them out. What we do now is, um, one of the things we've done is we've brought the command staff out and shown them, had them go through some of our experiential trainings to show them what it is.

[00:44:18] Hey guys. Hey, command. That's a good idea. Why don't you come out and do, um, what we call, we call this our wellness bootcamp. It's actually a post-traumatic wellness bootcamp, post-trauma, and it is just like, almost like a spa day, but it's after trauma. So it starts with, um, contrast therapy, float tanks, red light therapies, uh, red light saunas.

[00:44:40] We also do some kind of a physical workout during the day, and then we do some yoga nidra or some yoga, some stretching. And so this is the whole day we talk about why this is good for you, how it helps your brain. We talk about the parasympathetic and sympathetic systems, you know, so there's some education involved and you go through this day and at the end of the day, they all feel amazing.

[00:44:59] They [00:45:00] feel great. We're like, yes, and this is the reason why we think your folks should be doing these things, especially after being involved in a major incidents. You know? So one of the ways to help get them on board is to bring them out and do it. You know, have them get out there and, and do what the people are doing.

[00:45:17] So we do the same with our peer board teams. We bring our peer support teams. Say, Hey, instead of your training day being a lecture based training day at your station or whatever, why don't we make it a field trip this week? And you guys come out here and you do this multisensory biofeedback modality that we're using.

[00:45:31] Why don't you come out here and do a sound bath? Why don't you come out here and you know, utilize this salt cave. You know, so, um, and once we start educating our folks on what this looks like and how it feels and how amazing they feel afterwards, uh, it's easier for them to recommend these things to, to their departments.

[00:45:51] I wish the folks who receive these services would talk about 'em, but most of the time when they're receiving them is 'cause they're, uh, out for a [00:46:00] workers' comp claim and they don't wanna go back and talk about these things. But I really wish they would go back and say, yeah, peer support really helped me out.

[00:46:05] They did an amazing job for me. They recommended me here. I went to this retreat, I did this, I did that. It's, I'm so much better now. My brain's clear. I don't have that fog anymore. I'm not angry. Whatever. I wish I'd go back and talk about these things, but, you know, some of 'em are just, well, isn't that the best way to market a peer support program is if the rank and file here.

[00:46:26] Wow, this really helped me. And I thought it was, you know, oh, whohoo, yes. Uh, who woo at first, but. It really helped, wouldn't you think that might turn the tide? It definitely helps. It, it absolutely does. And I've gone to a couple gentlemen that I've worked with in the past and I said, do you mind if I share your story?

[00:46:41] And they've said, go ahead. Absolutely. You can share my story. I also try to get other people. We do. So when you're asking about agencies to have kind of embrace it, in turn, in turn, uh, we do have some agencies that, that, I'm not sure they were reluctant, but they weren't open about peer support. But now they are, now they, we go out there and we do [00:47:00] regular trainings with their peer support team.

[00:47:03] Quarterly trainings like you were saying. But we also do trainings with the whole entire department. We go into their briefings and we talk to the officers in briefing about stress management, about bureaucratic stress, about neuroplasticity. We talk about, you know, PTSD, we talk about alcohol awareness.

[00:47:19] We are doing this in the briefing trainings with, with officers. And we've seen a, a great response the first couple times, you know, it's. You know, you don't get much talk, right. It's whatever. But now they're almost like kind of the family. And we've actually had guys that have walked up to our clinicians saying, I stopped drinking because of that class that you gave us.

[00:47:36] I realize how bad alcohol is for my system, and I've stopped drinking because of that. Hey, I, I'm so glad you bring that out. I have been a major proponent of getting it everywhere we can, going into briefings, letting, letting everyone know what to do, and, um, thank you, thank you for that. That is just a, to me, that's one of the best ways to get word out and to help people to know what's, what's going [00:48:00] on.

[00:48:00] Now, it's great to start a peer support program. Great to get everybody trained, but what would you say has worked best to keep the momentum going so it doesn't just fade after the initial rollout? So some of the best ways to keep it going are to try to have some kind of a peer support driven event, at least.

[00:48:19] Twice a year if, if more possible. Right? So there's an agency, a local agency here, and every year their wellness team and peer 14 put together a wellness day for the entire city, and they bring in all these different, uh, almost like a carnival with no rides, right? They have all these wellness people out there that talk about financial wellness, spiritual wellness, physical wellness.

[00:48:41] They have these people out here that talk about like facials and Manny pet's. They have a coffee car, a taco car, a jumper for the kids, and it's just So, it's more of a, it's also a family day, right? Yes. It's just to really kind of show the vendors are all there to talk about the different kinds of wellness that are [00:49:00] available, different modalities.

[00:49:01] Uh, obviously finance is a huge stressor for a lot of us, so there has to be out there who talk about, you know, financial wellness or financial fitness, uh, is great. So there's an agency does that. There's another agency that their, um, team does a. Uh, biannual barbecue, their paperwork team puts on a biannual barbecue just to say, Hey, we're here.

[00:49:22] Use us. 'cause we can't, we don't get to brag about the work we do. 'cause it's all in confidence, right? I can't say, Hey, look at all the guys I saved. I talked to so and so and so and so they were a wreck. But now, because to me they're better. We don't get to talk about those things. So, and so all the things that happen behind the scenes.

[00:49:35] So you have to find ways to almost like market your team. Here you go. Here's a barbecue being put on by your team. You know, here is a wellness day being put on by your team. Another local agency, uh, when they first introduced their team. They did a chili Cookoff, you know, because, I don't know, I think half the cops here all think they make amazing chili.

[00:49:56] Um, and so everyone likes a [00:50:00] contest and, and everyone likes to be pinned the winner. And so they, they collaborated with their local churches. They put together this really amazing chili cookoff, it was a bunch of other food and stuff there. And after they named the winner of that, then they said, Hey, thank you for attending this.

[00:50:16] This event was put together by your peer support team here. Your here's your peer support team. And they were all there. They were all on the side. Now, here they are. These are all people on your peer support team, and this is what peer support is and why we're here and why we exist. And then they were done.

[00:50:29] But everyone had a great time. They're eating chili and food and cornbread and everything else that goes along with, you know, you know, ribs and chili. And, but it was, it's a great way to, to market your team, you know? Oh, what a great idea. And it sounds like it was received well, right? Yes. And then for our teams, we, we do what we call an angel committee.

[00:50:49] And so we have, every one of our teams has an angel committee. And the angel committee is responsible for congratulations on your promotions. Sorry for the loss of condolences. [00:51:00] Hey, you know, congrats on this. You know, so whatever's happening throughout your department, they're the ones that are sending out the cards.

[00:51:06] You know, if someone's home, uh, injured or whatever, thinking of you, here's a gift card to a local eatery. Like, here's a $25 or $40 gift card to a local eatery, you know, whatever. So their job as the angel Committee is just to make sure that we are paying attention to the people that aren't at work or that have suffered something throughout the year.

[00:51:26] Oh, what a great, what a great idea. And we, we keep saying team, and we mentioned team. How important is it to select the right peer supporters when it comes to credibility? Now, I know you mentioned yourself earlier, you weren't really the guy, but you became the guy. Uh, how important is it to select the right?

[00:51:45] Oh, it is probably the most important thing, you know, and I would, I would never select a guy like me to be in charge of that team. You would select you today, not the way you were, I would say Gabe now, years [00:52:00] ago. Right. Um, because I just, you know, now you're what, Gabe? 2.0, probably 4.0. 4.0. Okay. There's been a, I've, I've, I've turned over quite a few leaves.

[00:52:12] Um, uh, do you find that promoting the programs easier when the people, the right people are on the team? Um, no. I mean, 'cause No, no. What what do you mean by that? Because everyone looks at your team. Well, I shouldn't say everyone, but a lot of people look at your team and say, why is that person on your team?

[00:52:28] I would never talk to that person. And I tell 'em, well first of all, I didn't pick this team. Your, you know, your peers did. And it doesn't matter if you like that person. 'cause you don't have to talk to that person. You talk to anybody you want, you know, um, matter of fact, you don't even talk to anybody on this team.

[00:52:43] Just talk to somebody. You know, the, the only difference between talking to a peer supporter and a non-peer reporter is, is really two things. One, we have confidentiality and they don't. And two, we have the resources and training and they don't. But I don't [00:53:00] care who you talk to, as long as you talk to somebody who isn't being a cheerleader, have that real conversation, you know, so marketing the team is, is.

[00:53:10] I don't think there's any easy way to do it, even if you have the right people, because no one is liked by everybody. Somebody always has a problem with somebody or thinks they shouldn't be on the team, but I always tell 'em I didn't pick the team. So I, I discourage a team being selected by command because it comes with all the skepticism.

[00:53:29] Let's camp there for a minute. Why do you say that? Because when, and we will just start at the chief level, and I don't know if this is where it starts with everybody, but let's just sit that it does. The chief says, Hey Captain, I want you to put this team together because, okay, cool. The chief and the captain's gonna go either to his go-to guy or the lieutenant.

[00:53:44] And so it kind of goes down the chain and eventually the lieutenant says, okay, I don't know. Let me get my go-to guy is, you know, is Gabe, but a lot of people don't really like Gabe, but it doesn't matter. That's who the lieutenant picked. And then Gabe now picks his buddies to be [00:54:00] on the team. Well, I like that guy and that guy and that gal and that gal and this person.

[00:54:04] But little do we know half these people, nobody like. These are my buddies, not their buddies, you know? And so that meets a lot of skepticism. You know, it almost becomes like, well, you're just, you're all just here for the, the chief put this team together 'cause they picked you and then you put the people together, the chief likes.

[00:54:22] I have found that that process doesn't work well in agencies because there's so many people, like no one trusts that team. They're always telling the chief everything. They tell the captain everything. Those are all the chief's buddies or those, those are all the captain's buddies. So of course they're on the team just like, like, you know, it's a softball team all over again.

[00:54:38] So how do you recommend to do a team selection? Depending on the size of your, what do you feel works best? Depending on the size of your agency, it's really tough. You probably have to go with, uh, a different process. But for, for our small agencies, you know, I'm talking like, you know, 300 or less. Um, we do a, a ballot process, you know, a voting [00:55:00] process.

[00:55:00] So we put out a list. Of every sworn and non-sworn person in our department that is eligible to be on this team. And we put it out to, to the entire department, sworn and non-sworn. And we say, if you were to go to somebody for a personal or professional problem, who's the first person on this list that you would go to?

[00:55:19] And then who's the second person? And give you all the way down to 20 if you can. Depending, especially on the size of the team. So we were trying to put 20 people on our team and nobody could come up with 20 people. I couldn't even come up with 20 people. Right. I think the average was about 14 people that they would go to.

[00:55:35] And then based on that, we look at, okay, we tally all the votes and we say, Hey, you know, Bart, you were selected by your peers. We don't say that you got the most votes or you came in top, or there's no placement on this. It wasn't a popularity contest, right? No. We just say, Hey, we need 20, these are the top 20 vote getters, receivers, so let's start here.

[00:55:56] And um, and so we, that's how we went and [00:56:00] we said. When people are like, well, why me? I'm like, I don't know. Your peer selected you, you apparently, according to your peers, you are the guy they go to. You are the woman they go to. And, and a lot of times we, we know these things. I'm sure you walked around your agency and you probably saw the person that always had someone in their office just talking, you know?

[00:56:18] And you can go down to the traffic bureau and you're like, Hey, there's always somebody in that one person's office. All, it could be records, it could be c, SI, whatever. But you, we all know, like, man, there's always somebody in your office talking to you. And it's, most of the time it's not even about work.

[00:56:34] You know? And those are the folks you want on your team. And most of those folks are so humble that they say, no. Hey, do you wanna be in the scene? So in effect, they were pre-vetted, right? Yes. By their peers, you know, by their, by their constituents, right? Not by the command, you know, not by the Catherine.

[00:56:50] This was, these were selected by their peers. And that way when people come up and say, why did you pick that person? I can tell 'em, I didn't pick that person. You did. Well, why'd you pick that [00:57:00] person? I didn't pick that person. You guys did well, you just picked 'em 'cause you liked them. Well, I didn't pick 'em.

[00:57:05] I do like them, but I had people on my team that I didn't really care for. And that's the whole point of getting as many on your team as as your able, because not everyone's going to talk to absolutely everyone or anyone. Absolutely. But we definitely see over time when we do it the right way, when we on that confidentiality, when we are able to be a trust resource.

[00:57:27] We've seen that play out. In a positive way so many times. So Gabe, it sounds like you really sold on peer support teams right now, right? Well, like I joke with everybody. I said before, I wouldn't even drink the, I wouldn't look at the Kool-Aid or drink it Now I drink it every day. I pour every day. I make, I have my own Kool-Aid distillery now.

[00:57:49] I love, love the way you put that. Uh, that sounds great. Now, what would you say to maybe a line level responder, someone just boots on the ground [00:58:00] and they're seeing the need right now. How would you recommend they go about it? Maybe if leadership isn't listening yet, the best way they could work on getting a peer support team or wellness program is, I tell them you need to start developing some allies and you need to start developing some allies that have some kind of rank.

[00:58:18] Start getting a sergeant on board like you need to develop a wellness vision for your department. What does that look like and why? Like what, what makes you think you need this at your department? And then once you have your vision for your department, you need to sell that vision to a sergeant. And then once you sell that vision to a sergeant, then you collectively now need to sell that vision to a lieutenant.

[00:58:45] You know, because that's the only way you're gonna push this up the hill. It's so hard to push it up. It's easier to, easier to push it down. Right. We have to do, like, I started mine 'cause the chief said I had to, you know, I didn't have a choice. The chief said I had to do it, but we don't, until the [00:59:00] chief, he has to do something.

[00:59:02] You know, there's a lot of agencies, you know, I know one in particular here in Southern California, it was a very large agency and they had a lot of severe traumatic incidents, really bad ones. And I, I can't say too much about it because it's, it'll be easier for people to figure out. And, uh, and they're, they're a medium sized agency.

[00:59:19] They're pretty large. And, uh, their command would not give them a al team. I sat in with officers after one of their major incidents and the officer was saying, we want this here. They just won't give it to us. We need this here. They won't give it to us. We, we have to have this. They won't give it to us.

[00:59:35] And I said, because it's so hard to push up, you know, and then the person who was pushing for it was very angry. And so that's coming out during his, his fight to get this developed is his anger. And it doesn't really bode well with the command when Yes, that doesn't sell well. Right. It doesn't sell well.

[00:59:57] So my process to them would [01:00:00] be. Create a good wellness vision, you know? And then what does that look like? And then start developing your allies. I remember when people would come to me and they say, we need to do this. And my response to them was, okay, that, that sounds good. How about you put something together and get back with me?

[01:00:21] Absolutely. And so you almost have to get your ducks in a row before you go up to command level and say, this is what we want. Be prepared for them to say, well put something together and bring you the proposal. Yes, for sure. And you have to make sure you incorporate some kind of cost. 'cause that's sign effect too, if you, right.

[01:00:39] 'cause that'll ask, how much will this cost us? $40,000. That's a no. If you come by and say it's gonna cost you a thousand dollars. Like, oh, okay. Well, you know, we had a local agency here where, um, a couple of employees were really trying to push us up and they were, they were aggressively working towards joining this to the point where one day the chief went to the employee and said, [01:01:00] we'll never have that here.

[01:01:02] We'll never have a peer support or wellness program here. We'll never have it here, but if we ever did, you'll never be a part of it. That's how much this employee had. Oh. Irritated the chief with this program. We don't wanna do that. Yeah. We don't wanna make it be tactful. Right. So adversarial, because we're just, we're just pushing and pushing and pushing.

[01:01:19] Like you said, you have to have your ducks line. You, you need to think about this. Uh, another gentleman that I was talking to was gonna use this as his thing he was gonna do, like during the promotional process when they asked him, you know, what is his idea for moving forward or something for the department.

[01:01:33] His idea was gonna bring to a p. To bring a peer support program into the agency and he didn't get promoted. Um, but, but I, I liked the effort, right? I said, okay, but don't let it go there. Like you, even though you didn't get, even though you didn't get the promotion, don't let that stop you because they're gonna look at that.

[01:01:51] If this is something you're really passionate about, you're not gonna let this lack of promotion get in the way of doing this. You're gonna still figure out how to get it done. Get your ducks in a [01:02:00] line, like figure this out. What, what is the vision? Why do we need this? How is this gonna help? And we, I think we talked about that earlier, was why do we need this?

[01:02:10] What's the benefit of having a peer support program? Yeah. It's about them. It's, it's about everyone else. It's about us. So, but yeah, that would be my, my encouragement if you're trying to push it from the bottom up. Well, thank you, Gabe. This has been so valuable, some great information. Uh, last question. If you could give one piece of advice to any department that's trying to get buy-in for peer support, what would it be?

[01:02:31] My opinion would, my advice would be to. Put aside your personal opinions of peer support and employ or engage your professional non-biased opinion. A lot of our reluctance is because of a personal opinion. I don't think this will work. I don't believe in this. I don't think we need this. This is gonna cost too much and let's work on focusing on how to make this [01:03:00] work and not, it can't work.

[01:03:02] If your, and I say this a lot to people, if your kids can't you the same problem. Would you tell them, go figure it out, or would you help them figure it out? I said, and I know we're not your kids, but you tell me that we're family and you tell me that you care about me like I'm your family. So would you send your family away and say, figure it out, or would you help me figure it out?

[01:03:21] So help me figure it out. Good. I like that. Well, Gabe, thank you so much for being on the episode. Great information, uh, great getting to know you. Matter of fact, I hope we don't just end here. So, Gabe, if our listeners want to get in touch with you, what's the best way? Probably the best way would be through our, our website, and that is first street finder psych.com.

[01:03:45] Uh, they could also reach me through LinkedIn. I'm on LinkedIn and they, I'm also on the board of directors for the Public Safety Peer Support Association, which is, um, now I think a national conference. But we have our [01:04:00] conference every year in October down here in San Diego, and I'm on the board of directors for that.

[01:04:05] So they can go to ps psa dot.com and I'm on the website there as a board of directors. Great. We'll have all those links in the show notes so people can reach out to you if they, they need. Alright. Anything else before we go? No, thank you. I really appreciate this. I think it's a, a worth a, a worthy topic, uh, because I still run into agencies this day that don't have peer support teams or wellness programs, you know, and I think they're doing a huge disservice to their, to their people and their agencies.

[01:04:30] So thank you very much for your, for this opportunity and I appreciate everything that you're doing. Thanks, Gabe. Have a great day. Thank you, sir. You too, man. Wasn't that good. I know this one ran a little longer, but I hope you found it as helpful as I did. Gabe shared real world wisdom from years of doing the work, not just theory, but what actually builds trust and momentum in departments that aren't easy to convince.

[01:04:55] If you're serious about making peer support more than just a checkbox in your organization, [01:05:00] these kinds of conversations matter. And if your department is still figuring out how to get people to actually use your team. Go back and take notes or check out the transcription. You'll thank yourself later.

[01:05:13] Now, in the next episode, we're going to be talking about something just as important, how to keep your peer support program alive long term. It's one thing to launch with excitement, but how do you keep it going year after year, especially as people move on and priorities shift. We'll talk about sustainability, leadership support, and how to keep your team healthy so it doesn't burn out.

[01:05:38] So make sure you're following the podcast and come back for that one. You won't want to miss it. Thanks for listening to Surviving Your Shift. See you next time. God bless.