Is There Someone Who Understands Me? Find Out with Cherie Castellano

Bart Leger: If you're a first responder or other frontline professional who feels like no one understands what you're going through, then keep listening. Because this episode is all about lightening your load, finding someone to talk to who gets you, and helping your peers at the same time. That's all coming up next, so stay tuned.

Bart Leger: Welcome to Surviving Your Shift, your go to resource for building resilience in your high stress career. I'm your host, Bart Leger, where we'll not only talk about responder burnout and our experiences with trauma, but will equip you with the practical steps you can take today to get your mind out of overdrive and find meaning and joy again in answering the call.

Bart Leger: Did you have a day last week when you just needed to vent to someone who gets it? After a day filled [00:01:00] with back to back calls dealing with the worst moments of people's lives, and your brain is on overdrive with all this stuff, it'd be a relief, wouldn't it? Talk to someone, been through the same rough spots, who knows the drill, and won't judge you for feeling overwhelmed for the dark humor we sometimes use to cope.

Bart Leger: Just a real no BS chat to clear your head. Imagine having someone to talk to who really gets it. Someone who's walked in your shoes and knows exactly what you're going through. Or, what if you could be that person for someone else? Well, you're not alone. That's why I'm thrilled to introduce you today to Cherie Castellano.

Bart Leger: Cherie is a national expert in the field of peer support. She is the creator of the Reciprocal Peer Support Model, recognized as the national best practice by the American Psychiatric Association and the Department of Defense Center for Excellence. [00:02:00] Cherie is the founder of Volunteer, a non profit organization designed to get give and grow peer support for survivors of disaster, trauma, and mental illness.

Bart Leger: As the Rutgers University Behavioral Health Care National Center for Peer Support Director, Cherie has developed, led, and sustained over 20 peer support programs for various specialty populations. Cherie's peer programs include cop to cop, vet to vet, and Mom2Mom, Care2Caregivers, and Vets4Warriors, and many more.

Bart Leger: Cherie leads the National Center for Peer Support, staffed by 150 peers and clinicians providing services on a state and national level. Yielding millions of dollars of funding annually, Cherie is also a volunteer faculty member of the Rutgers Department of Psychiatry where [00:03:00] she's honed her clinical skills as an expert in peer support and crisis and trauma informed psychological services Currently, Cherie serves on President Biden's National Consortium for Law Enforcement Wellness, legislated to inform peer support and psychological support for law enforcement officers throughout the USA.

Bart Leger: Well, Cherie, it's wonderful to have you with us today. How are you doing? 

Cherie Castellano: I'm great. Thank you. I'm very excited to be here. Thank you so much, Bart. 

Bart Leger: Well, that is great. We were on Zoom for three days a few weeks ago. You remember that? 

Cherie Castellano: Yes, I do. Yeah, I don't know what was worse, teaching for three days or having to listen for three days.

Cherie Castellano: Oh, well, you know, 

Bart Leger: same thing. I had the, just the week after that I did a, a grand, uh, For those of our listeners who don't know what that is, it's a combined uh, group and assisting individuals in [00:04:00] crisis class and and that was three days. So it's, it's pretty grueling all day long for three days. I know what it's, I know what it's like.

Bart Leger: Now this is a little interesting, a little earlier you told me that you're writing in this year's Unity Tour. 

Cherie Castellano: I am, it's so exciting that you mentioned that. So yeah, tell us a little bit about it. I'm nervous, but really just blessed to be able to do this. 

Bart Leger: Yeah, what is it? I mean, I know what it is. Well, so 

Cherie Castellano: Yeah, so, so basically, I think, you know, I'm sure we'll talk about it as the interview unfolds, but I am not only a psychologist and, you know, expert in law enforcement, psychological, you know, service stuff, but I am the wife of a police officer.

Cherie Castellano: My husband is a captain at the Morris County Prosecutor's Office, and for 25 years he's been working in the field, and so have I, trying to support officers and, um, This year is one of, if not the first year that Concerns of Police Survivors is acknowledging those who are lost to suicide [00:05:00] as the, you know, in the memorial events.

Cherie Castellano: I just thought it was really important for my husband and I. He'll be turning 60. I'll be turning 62. It's during our birthdays. And after 25 years of service, wanting to really make sure we can raise awareness and funds. For those families who have lost someone in the ultimate sacrifice with line of duty death.

Cherie Castellano: And then again, you know, for us, I think for me personally, this fight with suicide prevention in law enforcement has been a long one. So, you know, hoping to honor those lost to suicide also. 

Bart Leger: Oh, that is so important. Uh, so important. I've been part of way too many officer funerals, firefighter funerals. Yes.

Bart Leger: And not all were, were in the line of duty, uh, right. Unfortunately, many were, were self inflicted and that's a, that's a terrible thing. So, so tell me a little bit about the ride. 

Cherie Castellano: So I think we go from, I know we go from New Jersey to Washington over four days, I guess it's between 350 and [00:06:00] 400 miles and I'll be riding beside my husband and it's our first time and of course I feel out of shape and unable to do it, but trying to make these qualifying rides and raise funds and again, you know, it's, it's about raising awareness and, and, you know, riding into that.

Cherie Castellano: Um, police memorial wall area on the fourth day, you know, I think is just going to be really special. We were there last year together to cheer everyone else on who is coming in from the ride and to offer some counseling and support with the other programs that I work for, for people who had lost somebody.

Cherie Castellano: So just glad to be part of it. It's in 

Bart Leger: May. Yeah, this, this episode may air uh, I think maybe the week or week after. So, yeah, so we, um, we would love to, to help you in any way we, we can. So, outside of your professional life, what are some things that you're particularly proud of? I know you mentioned family, anything else?

Cherie Castellano: Yeah, I think faith is a big driving force in my life, you know. My story sort of unfolds with a lot of, [00:07:00] you know, grace and faith and hope, uh, in the midst of, you know, overcoming challenges and suffering and, and things that all of us, you know, may or may not experience at some point in our lives. So I kind of like to, Think about my faith in my family as the foundation for everything.

Cherie Castellano: And, um, you know, all the other stuff is sort of kind of comes from that space. 

Bart Leger: Right. Now, I, I'm, when you look at your website, uh, volunteer, I, I got that right, correct? 

Cherie Castellano: Yes, you do. 

Bart Leger: Yeah. There's, um, there's a lot on it about peer support. How did you get started in the field of peer support? 

Cherie Castellano: Yeah, so I am a licensed behavioral health care professional, right?

Cherie Castellano: I'm a, an LPC and have a bunch of other alphabet after my name, certification, kinds of things and trauma and stuff. And I think that, you know, my interest in behavioral health care began with my family. [00:08:00] My grandfather suffered from mental illness when I was younger and I volunteered to help, to help him.

Cherie Castellano: And when I would go to the mental health hospital with my dad. Brigham Sunday macaroni. In my Italian tradition with my family, I really came to see mental illness as a disease rather than the stigma that's associated with it, I think, in our country. And so I knew I wanted to work in the field of behavioral healthcare or mental health, um, because I just loved my time, you know, visiting my grandpa, seeing other patients, understanding, you know, how interesting I thought they were and, and what, how much they needed.

Cherie Castellano: So that's what made me go into psychology, but I. Uh, I think shortly after, you know, working in the space, I realized there were some people who really were exposed to trauma, but never would use mental health services. And when I asked, for example, police officers in the city of Newark, when I asked, you see so much trauma, you know, why don't you reach out or talk to [00:09:00] these psychologists or psychiatric screeners in the ER when you bring people in?

Cherie Castellano: And, you know, when I asked that question, I got back, oh no, you know, we would lose our guns, you know, we, there's stigma associated with that in terms of weakness. So, you know, we don't want to do that. So I, I instantly thought I would like to help people who help other people naturally and that I would think about peer support as a way to help those rescuers, right?

Cherie Castellano: Rescue rescuers became the mission. And that's when I started to develop peer support services 25 years ago, a long time ago. 

Bart Leger: Really? Okay. Now, I've heard you mentioned something about reciprocal peer support model. 

Cherie Castellano: Yes. 

Bart Leger: Yeah. Tell us, maybe explain a little bit of what that is. 

Cherie Castellano: Yeah. So when I was working, um, in the city of Newark, you know, I did some research grants about peer support and crisis intervention and helping police officers and how it improved their performance and their wellbeing.

Cherie Castellano: But I really thought, you You know, the, for me, my [00:10:00] opportunities sort of magnified when I got this opportunity to, to become the director of a program at Rutgers University called Cop2Cop, and it was a legislated peer support program to help all 40, 000 officers. And the idea was to hire retired cops and train them to be peer counselors, and then put them on a line with mental health professionals.

Cherie Castellano: and have them, you know, help officers after traumatic events or if they were struggling. And so that went really well. It started in 99 and I did it for a year and it went really well. And then 9 11 happened in 2001 and that was life changing for all of us, right? Everyone's got a 9 11 story. Um, but particularly for me, You know, we were asked by our governor to respond to 9 11 and support the New Jersey Task Force, the Urban Search and Rescue Team, and all of the first responders in New Jersey, because we were a legislative law to help cops.

Cherie Castellano: So we were part of the disaster mental health plan. Anyway, I say that because 9 11 really [00:11:00] kind of opened my eyes to how much room there was to, to grow and develop peer support services beyond the traditional critical and stress management services. Um, and so I was blessed to have Dr. Everly, George Everly from ICISF and Dr.

Cherie Castellano: Reese from the FBI, um, at the time, come and create peer support services that would become a model for disaster mental health response for first responders. But during that time, it went on for about six or seven years that we provided support to all of the police officers, firefighters, and rescuers. In New Jersey, we included military, we did cop to cop, vet to vet, fire to fire, all those programs.

Cherie Castellano: In addition, I recognize that a model was emerging as we were providing the services with having those national experts to my right and to my left. So after about 10 years in 2010, I, I wrote my first article that [00:12:00] really summarized what the work was, a decade of peer support, which was called Reciprocal Peer Support.

Cherie Castellano: And it's a model that I created while working at University of Behavioral Health Care. And what I did was, um, sort of observe and identify. For tasks that the peer counselors were using to effectively move people back to a better quality of life. And I called it reciprocal peer support. 

Bart Leger: Now, I know just having, having done the job and having come in to help those who We're going through a difficult time know what I kept hearing.

Bart Leger: I'm good. I'm okay. I'm fine. How was how would were those services received in your opinion? 

Cherie Castellano: Well, yeah, I mean, I think this service is following 9 11 and still to this day 25 years. later are rejected by most first responders [00:13:00] in relationship to behavioral health care services, because I think even though we've come a far distance in understanding, you know, officer wellness and, and first responder wellness, I think the younger generation may be more open to therapy, sort of being, you know, aware of both physical and mental health.

Cherie Castellano: But I still think there is that, you know, stigma associated with asking for any kind of help if you're in law enforcement. So I think that the mention of a psychologist or therapist really brings to mind, People thinking it's a fitness for duty evaluation, they're going to get put on the rubber gun squad and it's going to ruin their career and the chances to be promoted.

Cherie Castellano: But I think when you say, do you want to talk to another officer or, you know, what I always suggest a retired officer or a trained peer counselor, you know, an interventionist in a debriefing, there's a different response. I think people are open to that. And so peer [00:14:00] support is, you know, more well accepted.

Bart Leger: Yeah, definitely. Well, they, they know what we're, they know what we're going through. I, I remember, uh, in, in our department, ended up with my terminal degree after I was in the, in the department. And I would have quite a few of our deputies come to my office and, and, and share, you know, I went to EAP and, you know, I was, Telling you, as they like to put it, I was talking to that little therapist and, 

Cherie Castellano: and, 

Bart Leger: uh, and I, you know, I said something and, and it, it shocked her and, and, you know, you have this, this typical, you know, we're, we're a helper and we don't want to, to cause harm and, and they, they just didn't feel like, no, we did have some good, some good therapists in our EAP, we had some former military and they didn't let them get away with any BS, but they would come to the office and say, Hey, we wear the same uniform, uh, can I just talk to you?

Bart Leger: And it's, well, That's not really the relationship that we're going to have, but I said, well, let's, let's see what we can do, uh, [00:15:00] because as you say, talking to another, uh, another first responder made a really big difference. And what are some of the, maybe some of the changes that you've seen, significant changes you've, you've seen in peer support services down through these years?

Cherie Castellano: Yeah, I mean, I think the lessons I've learned and what I apply with Volunteer, which is, you know, it's so exciting, you know, with your interest related to that initiative, because for me, that's sort of the future of peer support. Um, it's the culmination of the 25 years of my work now manifesting into, you know, taking those lessons learned and applying them to a non profit, you know, to, to an organization where, you know, we can.

Cherie Castellano: promulgate and promote, uh, peer support in, in groups and communities, um, and agencies where they can embed it and sort of make it their own, which I think is the future, you know, for we, I didn't invent peer support by any means. I, I'm, you know, considered a national expert in peer support in the country, in the behavioral [00:16:00] healthcare field.

Cherie Castellano: But I think that, you know, clearly peer support has been so well refined by the whole addictions movement. And, you know, it began with AA and that concept of, hi, you know, I'm an alcoholic and so are you, and let's go through the 12 steps and, you know, share lived experience and, you know, recover together.

Cherie Castellano: And so I think that's the origin of peer support in my opinion. And it really, you know, created the foundation for all the work that I've done the last 25 years. But I think that for me, you know, I wanted to make peer support something where people could connect in a strength based way. And so connecting as a cop or a mother of a disabled child or a veteran, and then talking about problems seemed, I call it like a cultural connection, seemed to be An easier way for people to start a conversation.

Cherie Castellano: And I think with Volunteer Now, what I'm doing is I'm taking groups that I think really need. additional [00:17:00] support because we have such a crisis in our country related to a shortage of mental health providers. And so if someone needs help, they might wait six weeks, eight weeks, they might wait six months, depending on what state they're in to get a licensed therapist who can see them.

Cherie Castellano: So while they're waiting, or in addition to that treatment, you know, I have found that peer support is a great asset or sort of paraprofession that people can get help from someone who is trained to support them and sort of hold them in that gap while they're waiting for the professional help. And I think that, you know, what I've come to understand in the term peer support is that it's, it's often used sort of, I'm not going to say inappropriately, but it's misunderstood because there are so many definitions that I, I describe peer support and volunteer.

Cherie Castellano: As really three kind of buckets of services that, you know, peer support can be prevention where we send peers out any [00:18:00] volunteer, they can go out and talk about, you know, trauma informed care. They can talk about resiliency. They can do outreach and, and, um, suicide prevention, but it's really like educational services.

Cherie Castellano: Um, and, and there is peers who, Are trying to be advocates. And then I think the intervention is the second bucket, right? The peer support counseling, whether you do that on the phone or in person or in groups, I think that the peer support counseling is sort of that more intensive, higher level peer support for someone to get assistance.

Cherie Castellano: And then the last bucket or area, when I mentioned these three areas in peer support at Volunteer is crisis response, right? Like the peer power counseling, but you know, really more after something traumatic happens, you would get support by somebody who had, you know, a similar experience. So I've taken that model and the work that I've done with reciprocal peer support and based on my own lived experience and my work at, at Volunteer.[00:19:00] 

Cherie Castellano: I've created a model called Survivor Informed Peer Support. And that's what I think, for me, is what I'm most excited about. Because the evolution of the work. 

Bart Leger: Oh, great. Now, I know we have many agencies, departments, in all disciplines, across the world, that have very good peer support programs. But for those who may have never utilized a peer support program, or even have much of a clue, How, what would that look like?

Bart Leger: Uh, someone's having a difficult time and, and they say, Hey, look, you know, we've got someone that, that you can talk to. What, what might that look like for the person that's saying, I just, I'd like to talk to someone who understands me, who gets me? 

Cherie Castellano: Yeah. I mean, I think, I think that right now, if we're talking about law enforcement, which I'm, I'm guessing it could be.

Cherie Castellano: Well, our, 

Bart Leger: our listeners are across the board. Any, just any, anyone in high stress profession, uh, I think 

Cherie Castellano: my first recommendation is to find a peer group that aligns with whichever group you're from, from, right? So [00:20:00] because of my cultural and trauma informed lens, you know, I would want a police officer talking to a police officer and, you know, a mom of a disabled child talking to a mom or, you know, I started volunteer after our family lost our house in a fire.

Cherie Castellano: And I think that surviving, you know, the fire and, you know, all that goes with that makes me uniquely suited to help somebody else who's overcome that kind of a challenge. So I think you start with finding groups that are aligned with. your lived experience. And there's lots of ways to do that. Um, but once you find that group that is, you know, aligned with whatever group you're part of.

Cherie Castellano: Then it's to see, you know, who is evidence based practice, who is best practice, you know, who are the national resources. So, for example, if you were in law enforcement, you might look at the International Association of Chiefs of Police, who has all kinds of resources for peer support, toolkits for law enforcement officers across the country.

Cherie Castellano: Or you [00:21:00] might, you know, if you're a firefighter, you might look at the International Association of Firefighters Peer Support Program. Or if you were you know, someone in the first responder world, you might use International Critical Instance Stress Foundation, right? To get support after traumatic events.

Cherie Castellano: So I think that it's really driven by culture first. And then the type of services that you need, um, and what they would expect to get really depends on what they need. 

Bart Leger: Right. I know in our crisis intervention trainings that, that, that we do, uh, I'll, I'll have any, everyone from, uh, FAA, air traffic controllers to, uh, to chaplains to fire, EMS, uh, had, uh, airline pilots, you, you name it, uh, Coast Guard.

Bart Leger: And we share some things in common. But there's some language. There are some things that, you know, when, when someone spits out an acronym and you get it right away, well, that must be a peer. [00:22:00] So it makes a big difference. Now, another thing is how does peer support differ from traditional therapy or counseling, especially in the context of counseling?

Bart Leger: of a, of a first responder or a highly trained individual who maybe a nurse in a, uh, in an emergency department. 

Cherie Castellano: Yeah, that's a great question, Bart. Um, there's a clear, there's a clear difference between, um, clinical services that are provided either by, you know, a licensed clinical social worker, professional counselor, psychologist, psychiatrist, um, behavioral healthcare professionals provide clinical treatment that is geared to you know, assess, diagnose, um, provide therapeutic intervention, um, and treatment plans that will lead someone on the road to recovery to manage their mental health challenge.

Cherie Castellano: There is no personal disclosure. Um, there's no information that your therapist or psychologist are going to give you about their lives. [00:23:00] To the contrary, you know, it is It's inappropriate to do that in clinical work, you know, the focus is obviously clearly the patient, the patient and the treatment approach to, you know, help them to be their best version of themselves and recover.

Cherie Castellano: In peer support, um, we begin with that alignment of self disclosure. So it starts with self disclosure. I am someone who has been where you are and I'm here with you now. And that person seeking help is going to connect. because of that self disclosure and that peer is not trained or able to handle acute presentations.

Cherie Castellano: So, you know, their only assessment functionality is to understand You know, if someone has any mental health challenge that requires a professional, that they are sort of using checklists or tools to get them to that professional right away, rather than try to address it themselves as an untrained, you know, [00:24:00] person in that specific space.

Cherie Castellano: Um, but the relationship is the focus in peer support and the idea of supplementing professional treatment. So you, you know, ideally someone might get Therapists to provide the, the more intensive treatment and a peer support partner to validate and normalize their experience. If someone doesn't have an acute mental health challenge, um, and is just recovering and wanting to normalize their experience.

Cherie Castellano: You know, we have the peers provide connection and, you know, stabilization techniques that are more around, you know, wellness plans and resilience planning. And, you know, again, sharing lived experience and education and then kind of moving them forward. Um, that's, those are the differences. 

Bart Leger: Yeah. So when you reach out to a properly trained peer, they're not just going to be winging it.

Bart Leger: Right. Right. They're going to be going through, uh, they're, they're going to be utilizing empirically [00:25:00] driven, uh, models and, and, and so we know that it's proven. We know that we've seen others help. 

Cherie Castellano: Yeah. And I mean, I think it's important to note that, you know, this is a young science peer support and behavioral health care.

Cherie Castellano: And so, you know, SAMHSA, the substance abuse and mental health governing body in our country has, you know, come out with Certification standards for peer support based on, you know, peer support recovery specialists who are, have been getting reimbursed working with those with addiction and mental illness for years now from Medicaid and have a very prescriptive training curriculum.

Cherie Castellano: But I think that there are a lot of good hearted people who have done some nice, You know, there's a support group for everything, you know, at some point when the self care, you know, self care, self help movement emerged. And I think that, you know, there is a risk of someone doing more harm than good if they're not trained and partnered with a licensed clinician and clinically supervised.

Cherie Castellano: So I think your first question might be to make sure that you're speaking to someone who is professionally [00:26:00] trained and supervised by a licensed mental health clinician so that you don't get, you know, re traumatized by Some, you know, well, well meaning person who, you know, isn't properly trained. 

Bart Leger: Can you maybe share a memorable moment from your career when you saw the impact of peer support firsthand?

Bart Leger: I mean, obviously no names of, you know, flat. Yeah. 

Cherie Castellano: I mean, I think, you know, I think the ones that I'm most comfortable with, just because of confidentiality being such a big deal, you know, some of the Times I, you know, was most moved was, um, you know, one of the programs that I run at Rutgers University is called Mom2Mom.

Cherie Castellano: And, you know, it was created for mothers of children with developmental disabilities. And at the time, you know, my youngest son was really struggling. He's doing beautifully now. Graduated with honors in graduate school, doing amazing. But at the time I was struggling, I provided peer support to a mother.

Cherie Castellano: In the city of Newark, which is a very violent, [00:27:00] you know, tough place, even though I love, love working there. Um, you know, she's had a lot of adversity in her life, single parent, a victim of abuse herself, has her own disability, has a job with a disability, you know, um, in the welfare system, struggling, um, really in a violent community where she was living.

Cherie Castellano: And during the time that I was assisting her and offering her peer support, We had an opportunity to celebrate Mother's Day together, and I asked her if I could meet with her and meet her daughter, and I did. And it's a very long story, but to make it short for this, the purposes of this, what I came to understand, from her was that she actually ended up helping me more than I helped her, you know, hence the reciprocity and peer support.

Cherie Castellano: But she really kind of, you know, explained to me in a very simple way that she felt like she was called to be her Disabled daughter's mother. And [00:28:00] that even though she felt ill equipped because of her own disability, that she seemed to always find a way to give her daughter what she needed, you know, no matter what obstacles were ahead of her.

Cherie Castellano: And it became a model and inspiration for me in my journey as a peer. And we have sustained a relationship now. I guess it's been probably 14 years. You know, we see each other on holidays when we can and we keep in touch. And, um, so even though the formal peer support relationship, um, as a professional is over, I came to connect to her and learn from her in a really unique way.

Cherie Castellano: Um, and she's also very faithful. So that was cool too. Yeah. So that social connection 

Bart Leger: is, is very, uh, is a part of that model for sure. Yes. So what qualities Should our listeners look for in a peer supporter? I mean, if they're looking to say, you know what, I want to talk to someone, what are some things that, you know, they should look for in a peer [00:29:00] supporter?

Cherie Castellano: Yeah. I mean, when I think about, you know, the field and again, positive psychology and what we look at now related to post traumatic growth instead of post traumatic stress disorder. So, you know, Calhoun and Tredici had this concept of post traumatic growth is, you know, someone experiences a traumatic event and if they enter that event, predisposed, they might come out stronger.

Cherie Castellano: So to be very specific, if they have a strong sense of themselves, if they have strong relationships in their lives and they have a belief in a higher power, maybe a traumatic event, you know, not only will not break them, but it might affirm them, make them feel like they are having an opportunity to use their gifts or live out their mission or their ministry.

Cherie Castellano: So I think the first thing I look for where I would look for if I was looking for a peer to receive peer support from, it would be somebody who was, you know, maybe through something similar to me. But really through it, you know, far enough away from it and, [00:30:00] you know, thriving and sort of successful in their lives in a way that I would want to be.

Cherie Castellano: That's how I would look at, you know, finding someone who would be my peer supporter. 

Bart Leger: Oh, good. I know when we were on the team, our, our state, Louisiana, has a, a law enforcement peer support team. Yeah. And served on that for many years, uh, was a coordinator, uh, as, as well. Anytime we had an incident. What we did was we chose our team and part of our team, obviously, if we had someone, if it was an officer involved shooting or if it was any type of critical incident, we really liked to pair.

Bart Leger: And when I was putting a team together, I would pair someone who had similar experiences. 

Cherie Castellano: Yes. 

Bart Leger: So when they're talking to them, they can say, well, you know what, I don't know how you feel, but 

Cherie Castellano: yes, 

Bart Leger: I know when I went through my incident, Yeah, that's such a great point, 

Cherie Castellano: Bart. Yeah. I mean, some of the research that we did some research with UNC with this Global Peers for Progress group to look at peer support interactions.

Cherie Castellano: And [00:31:00] what you're saying is so true. It's not just globally like, well, I'm in law enforcement and you're in law enforcement, you know, or I'm in the military and you're in the military. It's really good if it can be, I'm a Marine and you're a Marine, or I'm in the FBI and you're in the FBI, or I'm somebody who survived an officer involved shooting and so are you.

Cherie Castellano: So the closer the match can be to that lived experience, the better the outcome. 

Bart Leger: Yeah. Well, I had an interview yesterday, uh, with, um, a retired officer and one of the stories he shared on it mirrored one of my experiences so closely. Uh, actually my reaction was, uh, delayed. Uh, 10 years delayed and it was so similar.

Bart Leger: It was a child, uh, child abuse case and we could reciprocate it. It's, yeah, I know how you feel. I know how you feel. I felt the exact same way. So, uh, so based on your experience and you alluded to this earlier, how does the act of giving support? [00:32:00] also impact the peers who are providing it. 

Cherie Castellano: Yeah. I mean, you know, on my volunteer website, I talk about that in the videos and I've written a lot about that in survivor informed peer support.

Cherie Castellano: You know, the work itself is so affirming and so healing if done properly that like I mentioned, I often think that the, the people who are providing peer support can get more than those are getting it at any given time. But I think that You know, what peer support has meant to me and the people that I'm now training in communities, you know, the groups with volunteer that I'm focused on are groups that I thought still haven't gotten peer support the way they need it.

Cherie Castellano: And that's why I created volunteer. And so those groups are survivors of traumatic events like, like mine, like survivors of disaster. So fire, flood, homelessness, you know, 9 11, or, you know, a large, Disaster. I think [00:33:00] survivors of disasters uniquely connect and affirm each other. I think survivors of, um, first responder families.

Cherie Castellano: You have a personal 

Bart Leger: experience with a disaster, don't you? 

Cherie Castellano: Yes, I do. So I, I mean, I, I, you know, have written books and, and spoken all over the world about, you know, how to create peer support programming post 9 11 for first responders in terms of. You know, the best outcomes, and I was very involved in responding to supporting people post 9 11.

Cherie Castellano: But yeah, I mentioned briefly that, um, it was two years ago, last month, that I was teaching at Virginia Tech for my job, law enforcement, peer support training, and, um, my husband and my son were home, my other son was out, and we had a house fire. And luckily, everybody got out. Um, our one dog passed away in the fire and the firefighters were able to resuscitate her and use pet oxygen and everything so that she's [00:34:00] alive now.

Cherie Castellano: So everybody ended up okay, which is such a happy, blessed story. But we, you know, we lost everything we owned and the house and found ourselves in a hotel. I flew home and we stayed in a hotel and then temporary housing for a year while we built back up. But the, the important part about that story and the construct of volunteer in my life right now is that, um, during that time, everybody who we had ever done any kind deed for of any type seemed to emerge in a GoFundMe campaign, um, with messages, saying, you know, you helped me after 9 11, or, you know, my husband helped someone, or did something through the church, or for disabled kids, both my sons are big volunteers.

Cherie Castellano: And so every good deed we ever did seemed to culminate back in this GoFundMe, not only to raise 117, 000, which was a miraculous gift, um, for us, but almost 800 people, writing [00:35:00] messages that said, you helped me, I want to help you. And, and I think what was so profound about that was I realized that this reciprocal or survivor informed, this idea of, you know, giving and receiving wasn't just about.

Cherie Castellano: the behavioral healthcare world. It's, it's people in general. You know, if you watch the news, all you see is this horror show when, when in fact people really want to be kind and help each other. And I think post COVID, you know, it was tough to figure that out. Um, because we all had so much challenge with loss and mental health and violence and crazy things that have gone on in our world.

Cherie Castellano: And so we were just so touched that we took some of those funds that were given to us, donated, and we started Volunteer. We used some of the money to create this nonprofit to say, Hey, now we're going to give back to you. I mean, mostly me, it's my, my baby, but my whole family has been involved in the, you know, in the starting up of this nonprofit.

Cherie Castellano: And we said, okay, we're going to [00:36:00] keep that giving and receiving going by, you know, being in the community, training people how to be peers and then go back to their school or their church or their hospital or. their support group and do a better job at it, as well as just build resilience in the community.

Cherie Castellano: So that's what's happening as a result of that difficulty for us. And like I said, when I started to think about You know, all the help that we received, I recognized. And I mean, the Red Cross is great and all these organizations are great that help people after disasters, but I think they're overwhelmed.

Cherie Castellano: And there isn't a lot of mental health support available anymore for anyone. So, you know, Volunteer is meant to fill that gap for survivors of disaster. So, you know, family members of first responders, military, health care workers, people who save others. Um, I also think that there are a lot of people who have been victims of trauma, like traumatic loss, you know, sexual abuse, domestic violence.[00:37:00] 

Cherie Castellano: I think those are survivors that are my third group that we serve. And the fourth group are just specialty groups that I think don't get enough help. I don't think clergy get enough help. I think chaplains and priests and ministers and rabbis help everybody else and nobody helps them. Um, I also think the LGBTQ plus community.

Cherie Castellano: is sort of struggling now emotionally and there aren't enough peer support programs for them. So I sort of made Volunteer the wish list of groups that I wanted to help and those four groups are who we're focused on now. 

Bart Leger: That is very, very inspiring. Now for someone interested in becoming a trained peer supporter, what steps do you recommend they take?

Cherie Castellano: Again, I think I would go to, you know, which group I'm in. So the first, the first thing would be, you know, if you're a first responder. looking at who is the, the national leader in that space to receive peer support training. I mean, clearly, you know that I believe, and I think you feel the same, Bart, that following a [00:38:00] traumatic event, there is really no better system than the International Critical Instance Stress Foundation for First Responders.

Cherie Castellano: So if someone wanted to do peer support in what I call that postvention bucket, remember the three buckets of service, I would say ICISF all the way. And I think there are other models. Of psychological first aid that a peer supporter could do. But I think it depends on how you want to help. You know, maybe you want to raise awareness in your community so then you would get involved in advocacy groups to offer education.

Cherie Castellano: And if you want to do the kind of peer support counseling, That we're doing at Volunteer, you know, I think it's, it's a bigger commitment and, and understanding how you want to help, um, and which groups are doing that. 

Bart Leger: Right. Uh, familiar with, with many of those, uh, most familiar with the International Critical Incident Stress Foundation, been a part of that for many years.

Bart Leger: Uh, I lose track of how many of those I, I think I'm an instructor for I think nine, nine or 10 of those courses. Wow, Uh, and that's, and that's [00:39:00] primarily the trainings that I provide that and the, uh, the suicide intervention. Uh, so Cherie, as we begin to wrap up, what's one piece of advice or insight you'd like to leave our listeners with regarding supporting one another through life's adversities?

Cherie Castellano: Yeah, I mean, I think, I think that it, it's a great concept to just start with learning more about it. You know, I know you'll share my information, but it's volunteer. us, very easy website to go to if you want to just sort of check out. what I'm offering there in the context of education and concept to what peer support is and, and how you might as a volunteer just get involved, um, to give back.

Cherie Castellano: But I, I think the big thing is, you know, I, I always quote this, although the world is full of suffering, it is always full of the overcoming of it too. And that's a quote by Helen Keller. And I think the overcoming of suffering is what inspires me. I think that people, Lift each other up. I think that our faith and our spirit and our goodness is real.

Cherie Castellano: [00:40:00] Um, you know, I, I think of this work as a ministry in many ways. Um, I think that, you know, compassion is contagious. So, you know, I would love for us to, to move in those directions, you know, through your podcast and, and your advocacy board. And, and I think for me, you know, I just, instead of feeling broken or, you know, Overwhelmed when I think about, you know, overcoming things.

Cherie Castellano: I like to feel this idea of this new version, right? The new normal, the new, a new and improved 2. 0 version of all of us where we can, you know, lift each other up and, um, be stronger together. 

Bart Leger: Right, right. Oh, now this, this next question is personal. Well, maybe not too personal, uh, but here it is. What have you done today or what will you do today that's fun?

Bart Leger: Just something to take care of yourself. To survive was the question? No, to what's, what's something you plan on doing today or maybe you've already done that's fun. 

Cherie Castellano: Oh, just to take care of yourself. A self care idea. Okay. Um, yes. [00:41:00] So it's going to sound silly, but it is the, for me, I find a lot of comfort in prayer and meditation.

Cherie Castellano: And so as a, as a daily routine, I said the rosary this morning and listened to my favorite religious song. And it was a beautiful moment on a very rainy day here in New Jersey. 

Bart Leger: Oh, good, good. Well, Cherie, thanks so much for being with us today. Keep up the good work, and I look forward to hearing about all the great things you're involved in as you continue to help others.

Cherie Castellano: Thank you, Bart. It's been so wonderful to be with you, and thank you for the opportunity. 

Bart Leger: Oh, you're very, very welcome. Thank you very much. I hope you enjoyed my conversation today with Cherie Castellano. For more information and to get involved in what's going on at Volunteer, head over to the show notes where you'll find the links mentioned in this episode.

Bart Leger: If you like the show, please subscribe and leave an honest review. Tell us what resonated with you, [00:42:00] because your insights help us grow and create a community that supports one another. Were you tossing and turning in your bed last night because shift work has your body not knowing whether it's day or night?

Bart Leger: Sucks, doesn't it? Swinging between days and nights makes it almost impossible to establish a regular sleep pattern, or carve out consistent quality time for activities you love, leading to a life that feels constantly off balance. Well, you're in luck. In the next episode, I will be talking with a leading sleep expert.

Bart Leger: Dr. Philip Conner. So if you've been dreaming of a night or morning where you can lay your head on the pillow and drift off to sleep easily and wake up refreshed, stick around and I'll see you on that episode. So till next time, let's learn how to thrive, not just [00:43:00] survive.